Source: Theology Online Forums
Was Paul a false apostle? Scripture reveals he preached "another" gospel
Posted By MichaelEden
July 31st, 2003, 07:18 PM
"I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2 (NIV)
"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" Matthew 16:12 (KJV)
THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:
Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:
(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8
(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18
(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17
(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16
We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:
(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)
"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16
(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)
"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3
(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)
"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5
(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)
"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7
(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)
"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12
(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)
"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8
"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27
(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)
"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29
(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)
"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20
(What does Paul have against marriage?)
"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34
"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34
(strange talk)
"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40
(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)
"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14
"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11
(Paul loves the sin of pride)
"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15
(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)
"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14
(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)
"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34
(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)
"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."
PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:
Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2
What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:
This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8
Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?
So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:
"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18
---surrounding passages---
"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17
"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19
Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"
A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?
II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:
(Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)
"So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1
"Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8
(Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)
"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11
(Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7
(Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)
"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12
(Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)
"I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1
(Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)
"On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B
Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7
Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?
Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?
Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?
What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?
Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.
Michael111
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Posted By MichaelEden
August 1st, 2003, 11:51 AM
Revelation Chapter 2 starts out:
"UNTO the angel of the church of Ephesus write;" Rev 2:1
and then verse 2 states:
"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou has tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
WHAT'S THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS AND REVELATION 2:1?
You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit.
And there are 14 epistles full of evidence of misquoting scripture, boasting, not speaking on behalf of the Lord, strange doctrines, opinion presented as truth, envy, false humility, and some particularly venemous rants - such as the following:
(Paul advocates castration for those who disagree with his doctrine on circumcision)
"Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11/12
Paul's tasteless rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off...? Why do people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And for those who feel that I am taking something 'out of context'...
Whether these passages were the only thing on a page - or whether they appear in the bulk of a page - they are still 'evil leaven'. And if it was just one verse that was questionable - that would be one thing... But it's verse after verse after verse.
It's amazing how intensely people defend Paul even knowing that Paul was not the Messiah, he did not travel with Jesus and the other apostles, and Paul can do NOTHING for them on Judgment Day. But still they cling to Paul as some sort of 'Hero' or 'exalted apostle' even referring to him the 'greatest apostle' -
The deception is high in these end-times
Michael111
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Posted By MichaelEden
August 10th, 2003, 02:39 PM
For those who ask who my teacher is - it is Jesus Christ.
The scriptures reveal many things to those who seek the Truth.
In the case of Paul, Jesus showed me through the Holy Spirit, that he was not a true apostle. And if anyone reads his epistles very carefully - they will find evidence of Paul mis-quoting scripture, presenting personal opinions as truth, boasting, passing judgment, speaking harshly, lying, etc...
this passage ALONE should send up 'red flags':
"That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17
Here in the very pages of scripture is a man admitting that he speaks things "not after the Lord" and admits to speaking "foolishly" in addition to speaking all of this in the "confidence of boasting"
Can you say 'What's wrong with this picture?'
...more demonic 'leaven':
(Paul vengefully advocates that his enemies - circumcised Jews - castrate themselves)
"Brothers, If I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11-12
(Paul insults/passes mean judgment on circumcised Jews)
"Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh." Phil 3:2
(Paul blasphemously claims to know whose names are written in the book of life!)
"Yes , and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." Phil 4:2
(Paul stirs up the other apostles with accusation and hostility)
"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong." Gal 2:11
Blessings and Truth to all saints in Jesus Christ
Michael111
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Posted By Geaney
June 22nd, 2005, 03:09 PM
Congratulations to Michael Eden for so expertly marshalling extracts from the writings of Paul himself which confirm that Paul was a false apostle and the very "enemy" (Matthew 13:25) warned of by Yeshuwa Hameshiyach.
In your attempted rebuttal of Michael Eden you wrongly state that "Paul was accepted by the disciples as a follower and a welcome addition. READ acts 9" .
Contrary to your assertion Acts 9 makes it abundantly plain that Paul, was NOT "accepted by the disciples"
"But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "(Acts 9:26).
Later Paul 'PAUL' COMPLAINED BITTERLY to his disciple Timothy: "This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME" (2 Tim. 1:15).
More seriously as Michael Eden also pointed out Paul preached a completely different "Gospel" to that preached by Yeshuwa and His Twelve apostles of The lamb.
Yeshuwa and "the twelve apostles of The Lamb" (Revelation 21:14) preached "The Good News of The Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 24:14. Mark 1:15)
Paul preached THE LYING "ABOMINATION" (Exodus 23:7. Proverbs 17:15) which he admitted was "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) in which he teaches THE LIE concerning a "god that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5) . 'PAUL and his CHRISTIAN MINISTERS give FALSE assurances to "[I UNGODLY...SINNERS...concerning his "god that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY" (Romans 4:5). [/i]
"YHVH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) emphatically declares: "I WILL NOT JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY"(Exodus 23:7) and further makes it clear:
"HE (Paul) THAT JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, AND HE (Paul) THAT CONDEMNETH THE JUST, EVEN THEY BOTH ARE AN ABOMINATION TO YHVH" (Proverbs 17:15).
Thank you for providing me with this opportunity to show that Michael Eden is not alone in declaring that Paul was indeed a "false apostle" (Rev 2:2).
Patrick Geaney
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Posted By Messenger
May 5th, 2006, 05:34 PM
The Way, The Truth, and The Life
A rich man asked the Mashiach (Messiah, Christ) how he could enter the Father’s Kingdom. Yeshua (Jesus) replied, “Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”
What commandments was he talking about? Was it the commandment to ‘just believe in him and be saved’? Or was it the commandment that somehow ‘his blood would wash away all sin’?
Lucky for us, he does list the commandments to which he was referring. Most people would recognize them as the holy and righteous law that his Father YHVH (aka God) has always upheld. The life that Yeshua leads is no different than what his Father has always asked for. Yeshua is the example that each man and woman should strive to emulate. The 14th chapter of the Gospel of John offers several insights into this relationship between Father and Son. Here are a few quotes from Yeshua:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life;” (v.6)
“no one goes to the Father except by me.” (v.6)
“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” (v.9)
“The words that I have spoken to you do not come from me. The Father, who remains in me, does His own work.” (v.10)
“I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (v.11)
“I am telling you the truth: whoever believes in me will do what I do” (v.12)
“If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” (v.15)
This is the real gospel. This is it. The REAL DEAL. CASE CLOSED
Hmmm . . . this doesn’t exactly jive with what I’ve been taught . . . I’m pretty sure that the law is there to condemn us and that ‘there is none righteous under the law’ . . . yeah that’s what my pastor was saying last Sunday . . . oh yeah and my flesh will do what my spirit doesn’t want it to do . . . and man is ‘cursed under the law’ . . . yeah the law is a curse.
The Law is a curse? Your body does what your mind doesn’t want? There’s none righteous under the law? Have you gone mad child? Where did you get these teachings from?
Umm actually, it’s from a really smart guy . . . he wrote most of the new testament and he was God’s ‘greatest apostle’. His name was Paul.
Oh really, tell me what this Paul guy says then . . .
He says that nobody is righteous in Romans 3:10-12
10. As the scriptures say: “There is no one who is righteous,
11. No one who is wise or who worships God.
12. All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong;
No one does what is right, not even one.
My bible says that he was quoting from Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 which are basically identical passages. Let’s see what it says:
Psalm 14:1-3
Fools say to themselves, “There is no God!”
They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things;
There is no one who does what is right.
The LORD looks down from heaven at mankind to see if there are any
who are wise, any who worship him.
But they have all gone wrong; they are all equally bad.
Not one of them does what is right, not a single one.
Wow. It looks as though Paul has twisted the Psalms to imply that everyone is like that; not just the fools. If I keep reading what does Psalm 14:4 say?
“Don’t they know?” asks the LORD. “Are all these evildoers
ignorant? They live by robbing my people and they never pray to me.”
From this we can deduce that the LORD’s people are not included in the group that Paul describes. Paul twists the meaning of “no one” as written in the Psalms to include more people than just the ‘evildoers’ and ‘fools’. The LORD’s people are righteous because they do keep his Law.
Why don’t we have a look at Paul’s “conversion story”
Acts 9:3-7
3. As Saul was coming near the city of Damascus, suddenly a light from the sky flashed around him.
4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?”
5. “Who are you, Lord?” he asked. “I am Jesus, whom you persecute”, the voice said.
6. “But get up and go into the city, where you will be told what you must do.”
7. The men who were traveling with Saul had stopped, not saying a word; they heard the voice but could not see anyone.
Why don’t you tell it again Paul . . .
Acts 22:6-9
6.“As I was traveling and coming near Damascus, about midday a bright light from the sky flashed suddenly around me.
7. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?’
8. ‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute,’ he said to me.
9. The men with me saw the light, but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.”
Hmmm, I wonder why he can’t tell his story the same way twice in a row? Did the men see the light or did they hear the voice? Which is it Paul? Maybe he just made the whole thing up?
Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11: 16-18
16. I repeat: no one should think that I am a fool. But if you do, at least accept me as a fool, just so I will have a little to boast of.
17. Of course what I am saying now is not what the Lord would have me say; in this matter of boasting I am really talking like a fool.
18. But since there are so many who boast for merely human reasons, I will do the same.
???? What? The more I look at this ‘Paul’ scripture the more it seems like he’s crazy. In Jeremiah 9:24, YHVH says, “If anyone wants to boast, he should boast that he knows and understands me,”
John 7:18
[Yeshua said,] “A person who speaks on his own authority is trying to gain glory for himself.”
Paul says in Romans 3:20 “For no one is put right in God’s sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know he sinned.”
??????? Does this even require a rebuttal? Can I not just direct you to the teachings of the Messiah outlined in the start of this paper? The way into the Kingdom of heaven is to do what the Law requires . . . this truth coming straight from the mouth of Yeshua. (“Keep the commandments if you want to enter life.”)
The truth of the matter is that basically all of Paul’s writings are twisted and confusing. Why would God have and apostle that was difficult to understand? That just doesn’t make any sense. Keep comparing “Paul’s Gospel” to the true gospel of the real Messiah and the real apostles (Matthew and John), and you’ll see the difference is like night and day . . . spiritual night and day.
I would like to thank the members of www.riversofrevelation.com/forum for their insight and support.
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Posted by Messenger
May 26th, 2006, 12:32 PM
People have written much to show where Paul and Jesus agree.
Here's my problem with Paul. Please tell me how to reconcile this if you can:
WAS THERE NONE RIGHTEOUS UNDER THE LAW?
In claiming that “there is none righteous, no, not one” under the Law, Saul of Tarsus, also called Paul, contradicted the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul says that none is righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse:
Ro 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
But the Lord Jesus says there were many who were righteous under the law:
Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
In fact, some of the righteous under the law during the lifetime of both Jesus and Saul were:
Elizabeth and Zechariah, the parents of John the Baptist: Lu 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Simeon, who waited to see the Messiah: Lu 2:25 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Joseph the husband of Mary, and Mary herself who was chosen to be Jesus’ mother: Mt 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example,was minded to put her away privily.
John the Baptist: Mr 6:20 - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
Why did Saul contradict the Lord? The answer is simple: Saul misunderstood the relationship between the Law and the Love.
Saul preached that the law cannot justify or make man righteous before God:
Ro 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ga 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
In contrast, the Lord affirmed the law, came to fulfill his part in it, and exhorted his hearers to obey it. Thus:
Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
And the Lord added that, beyond or on top of the life that the law gives, he offers perfection to those who would follow him. Thus:
Mt 19:16 - And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
In summary, Paul’s gospel says: Never mind the law; just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you are saved. Thus many believers disregard the Ten Commandments without feeling guilty, believing that they have been saved by faith in Christ, and that once saved, always saved. But if they cannot enter life, how can they go to perfection?
But the Lord’s gospel says: Obey the law and enter life, then achieve perfection by following him. Faith in him makes easier entry to life and achievement of perfection, because the Holy Spirit puts and writes the law in our minds and hearts. But the Holy Spirit does not dwell in unclean vessels. The correct sequence therefore is: Repent, forgive, believe in Christ, be baptized, and the Holy Spirit will indwell us and lead us to life (by obeying the Law) and perfection (by following Christ in agape love).
Paul quoted from Psalm 14 and used a tiny truncated phrase to make a huge generalization to set aside the Law. Fully read, Psalm 14 clearly states that while none is righteous among the fools and children of iniquity, God always has a righteous generation who keep the Law.
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Posted by Messenger
May 26th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Romans 7:13-22 (King James Version)
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(I am sold to my second master: SIN)
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
I do know what is right, I just don't do it. Instead I serve a second master
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
????? What Paul??? ??????
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Here's a great excuse everyone: It's not you that does it, it's the sin itself!
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
I know that I shouldn't sin, but I don't have the self-control to do anything about it
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
I chose evil over good everytime
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Like I said, sin has a complete grip on my actions
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
So then . . . good = evil?
3 John 1:11 (King James Version)
11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Malachi 2:17 (KJV)
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
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Posted by Messenger
May 26th, 2006, 04:18 PM
The section of Romans 7 that I just outlined is complete bull. If you want to defend someone who talks like that (seemingly schizophrenic), fine. Just don't expect me to believe that Jesus sent him when he says things like this:
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
He is completely trying to duck the responsibility for his sins. He's saying that sin is a separate entity that somehow has gained complete control of him. Open your eyes please.
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Posted by Messenger
May 26th, 2006, 06:22 PM
how about this verse: (This is what he says after the other schizo stuff he wrote earlier)
Romans 7:
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Translated: "I serve two masters"
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Posted by Messenger
May 26th, 2006, 08:54 PMQuote:
Originally Posted by RayOfLight
To question Paul is to question the authority of the other apostles since the Peter, James, and John accepted Paul's apostleship (Gal. 2:9). It is also putting the writings of Luke into question since in Acts 13:1-3, Luke wrote that it's the Holy Spirit who set apart Saul and Barny for the work they were called to.
It seems to me that Luke was like a journalist, writing down what he saw, and some times what people told him, just taking their word for it. He was a travelling companion of Paul.
I also notice that Luke disagrees with other gospels, for example, saying that disiples tarried in a certain town, when other gospels say that they were told not to and therefore departed. This makes me wonder about Luke.Quote:
It is also putting into question Peter's endorsement of Paul (2 Peter 3:15)
The book of 2 Peter is considered by most scholars to be pseudoanonymous. . and not written by Peter.
This is a tragic loss for Paul supporters because it is the ONLY time one of the original 12 apostles appears to refer to Paul in any of the books the 12 apostles had actually authored.
IMHO, the only part of 2 Peter that has any validity is the second chapter simply because it was taken from the genuine book of Jude.
And for anyone thinking that Peter wrote 1 Peter think again.
1 Peter 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
Where else do we read about Silvanus :
2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Silvanus was clearly Paul's partner
Jesus gave us the prophecy of Peter's hands being tied (equivalent) so he is taken where he would not want to go ... if someone wrote something in my name after my death that I would object to in life, this would see me with my hands tied and taken where I wouldn't want to go.
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Posted by Messenger
May 27th, 2006, 01:00 PM
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Paul said he saw Jesus ... or did he encounter a localised false Christ that Jesus had warned about? LK 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Paul knows this 2COR 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
1COR 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
If people accept that Jesus spoke Truth, only then the answer to Paul's question is NO ... he has NOT seen Jesus because Jesus said nobody would see him in a localised place. Jesus warned that anybody who says they have seen him is to be avoided ie GO NOT AFTER THEM NOR FOLLOW THEM!!!!
Was the one who supposedly identified himself to Paul as 'Jesus' a false Christ as warned about by our Master or are they accusing Jesus of not telling the Truth in his warnings? ... do people believe Jesus or believe Paul? Did Jesus lie or did Paul lie ... easy answer ROM 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
2COR 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
(this word for 'messenger' is translated as 'angel' in every bible verse EXCEPT this one ... angel of Satan ... fits description of 'angel of light' Paul knows of)
Even if they check fruit and see that
Jesus delivers people FROM Satan while Paul delivers TO Satan ... opposites.
stopped reading thread at end of page 7
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